95 replies to this topic

[Marine Captain Llewelyn]

How many million people are supposed to be living aboard?

Less than a quarter. The permanent population of the station is around 180,000 - of which Starfleet makes up 120,000 (with 20,000 of those officers and 100,000 enlisted personnel) and civilians the rest. The station can, at maximum capacity, hold a population of 440,000, though I doubt they often get visitor numbers in quite that size.

That's right, I remember the debate over the size of the station. Okay, so the Marines average at 60% of Naval strength so does that figure include the Marine contingent or are those starfleet regs? Additionally does that account for ships permanently based out of SB118 space docks? Technically the personnel on those vessels would not be quartered aboard the station... And you are saying there are 60,000 civilians... BTW, has anyone considered the fact that there are what maybe 20 or so canonical references to Starbases, not including spacedock... and with 1/5 of the total contingent of Starfleet and Marines combined being officers, has anyone considered the infeasibility to graduate that many cadets from Starfleet Academy to sustain those kinds of numbers? Consider this as well, given the concerns about the Marine Contingent being too big, given the statistical ratio of 1 to .6 Starfleet to Marines this means that there are 75,000 Regs and 45,000 Marines represented. Consider that we have lets just say 100 Marines to a company to include Officers and NCO's, etc., and each Battalion is made up of at least 5 companies, that's roughly 525 Marines per battalion when you factor in S-departmental staff. Lets say you have 7 battalions to a regiment that still only accounts for roughly
3,700 troops. Now if you were to scale down the number of Marines to Starfleet from .6 of the Regs to .06 then you have a regimental complement for the Station of roughly 6,800 personnel. Now at roughly 1,500 Marines per Mastiff class and 1,000 per Akira Class Frigate, assuming that the regiment has two of each, plus the afloat battalion split up amongst Discovery, challenger, Ronin and at least two other Ships and you have a regimental garrison size of roughly 1,800 Marines which would be roughly 3 battalions. Even with this math, the numbers are closer to a division, however being Star trek we can ignore that if we want.

[Nerreht]

There also the fact that we aren't just one planet, so the numbers would work in terms of how many people can graduate the Academy, either as officer or NCO. If my memory serves well, there are 156 member races of the Federation, with about a few thousand planets overall, which means many hundreds of billion individuals in the Federation. So by those numbers, producing that much officers and NCOs isn't that far fetched. Not to mention that technically, it takes litterally years to get promoted in the "real" Trek timeline, so adding that fact, it still adds up.

[Marine Captain Llewelyn]

There also the fact that we aren't just one planet, so the numbers would work in terms of how many people can graduate the Academy, either as officer or NCO. If my memory serves well, there are 156 member races of the Federation, with about a few thousand planets overall, which means many hundreds of billion individuals in the Federation. So by those numbers, producing that much officers and NCOs isn't that far fetched. Not to mention that technically, it takes litterally years to get promoted in the "real" Trek timeline, so adding that fact, it still adds up.

But the reality is Starfleet Acadamy can only accomodate so many cadets. Have you ever been to the Presidio? It's a small base compared to most. I'm thinking with faculty and cadets you could maybe have a combined complement of 10,000, with about 2000 per class graduating.

[Sakorra Jefferson Reed]

San Francisco is not the only Starfleet Academy. There are also satellite schools on other planets and starbases. San Francisco is merely the main academy.

[Marine Captain Llewelyn]

San Francisco is not the only Starfleet Academy. There are also satellite schools on other planets and starbases. San Francisco is merely the main academy.

I'm so glad to hear you say that, because that has been my thought as well for a LONG time. When I ran the Multiverse Role Player's Guild Star Trek Sim org I had a very detailed "Starfleet Academy Subspace Extension Program" operating out of Starbase 619/ Rhondda Orbital Platform, Galatia Prime. This definitely would account for additional avenues for advancement within Starfleet, although like most extension courses I would imagine that it would be mandatory to spend a certain amount of time each year at the Actual academy, an orientation week, a symposium, or introduction to this or that. What could be fun is to design a logo for the different academy sites, like you have Cal Poly Pomona and Cal Poly San Luis Obispo... Of course, the canonical purists would castigate us for such extrapolation...

[Sakorra Jefferson Reed]

One of the reasons for the campuses outside of the main academy is because it would be hard, as large as the Federation is, for every cadet to travel to San Francisco. Betazed has a large campus, as does SB118. There are also sites that don't have an academy but have testing facilities. Wesely Crusher took an academy test at one of them, instead of going all the way to San Francisco. The Federation has so many member worlds that it wouldn't make sense for them to all have to come to Earth to be in Starfleet. I think it is great, though, because since SB118 has an academy, it would be reasonable to expect I'd have Marine cadets training with the Marine contingent.

[Nerreht]

Just a note, Wesley was an exception since he had been serving on the Enterprise. And the only test he took was the preliminary test to see if he'd be accepted to the Academy (which he was beaten by a Benzite student). He still had to go to Earth to have his classes when he did get accepted into the Academy.

[Sakorra Jefferson Reed]

That is because he was close enough. Like I said, there are other sites that are just testing facilities, so yes, a person would still need to go to a regular campus. I was just adding to the academy information to give us an idea how many educational facilities there are besides the main campus. He, along with three others, tested at the Relva VII facility. But some students just aren't close enough to go to Earth. In DS9, Bashir makes reference to to enlisted crewman that did not attend the San Francisco academy. And here is what Memory Alpha says:

Academy Flight Range: Located in San Francisco

Marseille Starfleet base: The Marseille Starfleet base is a satellite campus of Starfleet Academy in San Francisco.
In an alternate timeline, Lieutenant Junior Grade Tom Paris completed courses at the Marseille Starfleet base during his years as a cadet. (VOY: "Non Sequitur")

Starfleet Academy, Beta Aquilae II :The Beta Aquilae II Starfleet Academy is an annex of Starfleet Academy in the Beta Aquilae system. Ensign Lois Eckridge graduated from this Academy annex on stardate 44001.3. (TNG: "Eye of the Beholder")

Starfleet Academy, Beta Ursae Minor II: The Beta Ursae Minor II Starfleet Academy is an annex of Starfleet Academy in the Beta Ursae Minor system. Lieutenant Darien Wallace was a graduate of this Academy annex. (TNG: "Eye of the Beholder")


Starfleet Academy, Earth

Starfleet testing area, Relva VII: Where Weseley and the other 3 students tested.

Starfleet Academy, Psi Upsilon III : The Psi Upsilon III Starfleet Academy is an annex of Starfleet Academy in the Psi Upsilon system. Lieutenant junior grade Daniel Kwan was a graduate of this Academy annex. (TNG: "Eye of the Beholder")

It seems we are heading into strictly academy speak with this, so perhaps we should move it over to the academy thread?

[Sakorra Jefferson Reed]

Since we've been pitching around ideas for the academy, I thought I would pitch in Llewelyn's idea about SB118 being a training and doctrine command (TRADOC) where Marines would undergo training. This could be an extension of the academy and a site that would serve for continued training and advancement, such as OTS (Officers' Training School). I like the idea, but I would think there is a lot of work involved, both IC and OOC. One thing he brought up was the idea of having dedicated training for those wishing to be posted to a marine assignment. I can understand this, especially if a cadet is coming into it with an interest but no idea how to play a marine. A lot of the information on the Starfleet Marine Corp is scattered around the internet and often differs from one site to the next. He'd had an idea of compiling a Marine training manual, which I think is a great idea, and I'm hoping to get that convo going in the duty post threat, but as it does affect SB118 and our simming, I thought I would post this here, as well, and get some opinions. There has been a lot of interest in simming as a Marine, and I think further development and training could certainly help in simming productively as a Marine. Ideas? Suggestions?

[Quinn Reynolds]

IC, I see absolutely no reason why not. With such a large contingent of marines aboard the Starbase, it makes sense that it might have some training programs (and why not take advantage of the Academy facilities already on the base?). I think it could also give some potential fun for you and other officers on the Starbase; marines training Starfleet (a bit like the way the SAS sometimes teaches firearms handling to the police over here) and visa versa.

But if we're talking about the induction to our group, that's something you'll have to run past Sidney and Toni. I'm not sure how feasible it is - if they're trained as Marines and only Marines, that limits the ship postings available. Or how necessary- no other duty post gets specific training, and I'm not sure it's needed. After all, we're teaching them how to sim, not a detailed instruction on how their duty post works since that can differ from ship to ship. It might be nice to work on some additions to those training scenarios, though. See if we can work out something for marines to do in that initial, setting-the-scene sim.

A training manual or guide/ideas could be helpful, though. Perhaps up on the wiki, on (or linked from) the marine duty post page?

[Marine Captain Llewelyn]

IC, I see absolutely no reason why not. With such a large contingent of marines aboard the Starbase, it makes sense that it might have some training programs (and why not take advantage of the Academy facilities already on the base?). I think it could also give some potential fun for you and other officers on the Starbase; marines training Starfleet (a bit like the way the SAS sometimes teaches firearms handling to the police over here) and visa versa.

But if we're talking about the induction to our group, that's something you'll have to run past Sidney and Toni. I'm not sure how feasible it is - if they're trained as Marines and only Marines, that limits the ship postings available. Or how necessary- no other duty post gets specific training, and I'm not sure it's needed. After all, we're teaching them how to sim, not a detailed instruction on how their duty post works since that can differ from ship to ship. It might be nice to work on some additions to those training scenarios, though. See if we can work out something for marines to do in that initial, setting-the-scene sim.

A training manual or guide/ideas could be helpful, though. Perhaps up on the wiki, on (or linked from) the marine duty post page?

My recommendation would be that they first be trained as regulars. Marines are largely run as NPC's at this point. Once we establish that they've got the basics of simming and are in good standing with the group, then we can process applicants for the Marines. And if they don't make the cut, they still have their old classification to fall back on. We're really talking Marine OCS here, which even officers from other branches nowadays would need to transition into "Marine Life".
That's how I'd proceed, but I like Toni, and I"m sure she has some good input as well, so the more the merrier.

[Sinda Essen]

I'm a bit concerned as to how that would work in practice. After all, it would be singling out one duty post for special attention. If the marines had, to all intents and purposes, their 'own academy' wouldn't we have to create one for, say, medical personnel? As stated in the character creation notes, medical characters are likely to start the game older than most as they will have had to take into acount an extra 4 years of medical school, but we don't run a specific academy for them.

Something that bears looking into, but I have my reservations.

[Sakorra Jefferson Reed]

Ok, first, when I meant we should have a dedicated training program for the marines, I didn't necesarily mean a special training for them that would take the place of regular training. I think that the training should be in addition to regular training. As far as giving one duty post special attention over another, well, there are arguments for and against that. There are lots of people to model off of for all of the other duty posts, as far as the simming and protocol, but for the Marines, everything is different. The speech is different, the protocol is different, etc. If you are the only Marine on a ship or base, you will end up being lost. Now, as far as dedicated training for duty posts, I think training isn't a bad idea for that, actually. I used to go to the tactical duty post thread, and I'd ask questions, and sometimes I'd get an answer and sometimes I wouldn't. I think, at the very least, we could have training manuals for the duty posts. It would be easier to have one place to look for ideas rather than surfing the internet for hours.

Anyway, though, that is another discussion.

Edited by Jefferson Reed, 17 January 2009 - 11:29 AM.

[Nerreht]

I'd tend to agree with Thelev on that one. I mean, we all have to do our own research on how our duty post works at some point because nobody starts the game knowing everything. So why can't the players who choose to have Marines characters do the research themselves? If you take time to build a reference about how Marines are organized to begin with, I know people don't read much, but shouldn't it be up to them to take that load of responsability to check up what they're getting into first? If you get all the info they need in one place, it's easy enough to find it, so there shouldn't be a need for any particular training to give those who play Marines.

[Sakorra Jefferson Reed]

Reading is one thing. Simming effectively is another.

What I'm basically saying, in a nutshell, is that it doesn't have to be so hard. I've taken a few leaves here and there, and the reason I usually did was lack of time and frustration. I was frustrated with going here and there, taking hours to do a sim because I was looking for that one piece of information and I couldn't find it. I bet that one of the big reasons we lose people is for those very reasons. If we are providing a place for people to SIM, shouldn't we also do what we can, everything we can, to help them succeed, rather than throwing them into the ocean and hoping they can swim? Certainly, a manual will help, but when I first started, I wanted to know what other tactical officers would do if faced with a certain situation, and certainly a day or two of extra training in a duty post training area would help with that, help new simmers get the lingo down, things like that. Think of it like this...when you go into the military, you go in for basic training, but after that, you do more training...in your chosen field. In the end, I believe we can attract more simmers and retain those we have, making for an even better fleet than we already are. And isn't that our goal?

Edited by Jefferson Reed, 18 January 2009 - 04:20 PM.

[Delinda Sharee]

I understand were you are coming from with the feelings about researching your role in the sim, any role for that matter. I certainly did my share for counseling when I started, and now I am doing it again for command. I'm not sure that more time in training and off of the ships is the answer for us. Asking our new members to sit aside for a week so we can show them how we want things done is already a lot for us to be asking. New member don't know if going through those first steps for the group is worth it. I know I didn't when I joined. I didn't know what the sim rates were, or the quality. Unfortunately some of our best selling points are only seen once you are a full member. The longer we hold them out, the more time we have to lose them. I have a feeling holding people out for an extra round of training into their duty field is just going to give them more time to decide this isn't worth the unknown of our group.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Academy is an excellent system. It ensures a certain level of quality. It also helps to minimize the thrown in at the deep end of the pool feeling for new members. I'm just not sure adding more training would help our cadet retention.

It would seem to me the best place to help guide our new members in their duty posts would be the wiki. That is also why I think this thread and the Marine duty post thread are excellent. If we can come up with solid ideas for how to sim the duty post, and what the lingo should be, we need only make the appropriate wiki pages. Then it is only a matter of directing them to the many resources we already have in place. I know this is done with new members who come to Ops, and I can only assume it is the same across the fleet. I certainly hope it is.

I think we have a system in place that works. If anything we just need more information to present within that system, and if we all work together that is a problem that can be easily solved.

Edited by Delinda Sharee, 18 January 2009 - 08:26 PM.

[Marine Captain Llewelyn]

The point is that what we're proposing is not something that "newbie" recruits would be saddled with anyway. This is kind of a special case in that Marines are often used as NPC or PNPC characters, with a PC simming for up to an entire squad, squadren, or platoon. Such multitasking is an advanced writing skill that not everyone is ready for. We're talking about providing a training beyond the original sim training, with the requirement that a PC have achieved at least a Lt(jG) prior to attempting it. You don't have single Marines on ships. It should be expected that if you have two or 3 characters on a ship being played as Marines, one would be the Marine C/O, one his XO and the other one would be platoon leader. Your average platoon consists of between 20 and 30 Marines. There's duty shifts to assign, routine training. This is very advanced, lower decks, story enriching background stuff that can provide a simming outlet for your average HCO or Tac pc who may have a lull in the action. I mean often times we have a main character as a department head, but ships also have junior officer PC's working under them, and when the senior officers go off on missions, the junior officers are left on the ship. This is where playing NPC's can enrich the sim experience. After all, your average Star Trek episode always had one main plotline and two minor plotlines going... The Marines can provide that complementary second or third plotline...

Edited by Iolo Madoc Llewelyn, 18 January 2009 - 11:11 PM.

[Nerreht]

But the point we're trying to make is that Marines aren't any more special than the other postings. Yes, they aren't as defined as the other postings in the Trek universe, but if we start treating the players differently, it will cause many problems down the line. Not only are the points Delinda made about the time factor giving them more chance to quit on us very relevant, but assuming the Marines players get some "special treatment" because they're playing Marines, then we're going to have people all around the place wanting some special attention too. I know it's a stupid point to bring up, but people are like that. One group gets special attention, the others will want it too. And then we're stuck in the neverending spiral of whining that a group has some priviledges that the others don't have, and so on, and so on...

My simming experience being what it is, I can say that the current procedures are effective and puts everybody on the same level. And honestly, I think that if the future Marines have people like Reed and yourself to gather all the infos in one place to make life easier for them, they've already got more help than most of us had.

Edited by Nerreht, 19 January 2009 - 04:24 AM.

[Marine Captain Llewelyn]

But the point we're trying to make is that Marines aren't any more special than the other postings. Yes, they aren't as defined as the other postings in the Trek universe, but if we start treating the players differently, it will cause many problems down the line. Not only are the points Delinda made about the time factor giving them more chance to quit on us very relevant, but assuming the Marines players get some "special treatment" because they're playing Marines, then we're going to have people all around the place wanting some special attention too. I know it's a stupid point to bring up, but people are like that. One group gets special attention, the others will want it too. And then we're stuck in the neverending spiral of whining that a group has some priviledges that the others don't have, and so on, and so on...

My simming experience being what it is, I can say that the current procedures are effective and puts everybody on the same level. And honestly, I think that if the future Marines have people like Reed and yourself to gather all the infos in one place to make life easier for them, they've already got more help than most of us had.

I think that what we are talking about is an organic evolutionary step in the growth of the UFOP. Consider this... We started out with SB118, now we have at least two ships operating out of the Ithassa Region who for all intents and purposes call DS17 their "home base". Although we are one "org" you could almost make the point that the INDY and RONIN are part of DS17: UFOP. We haven't been home to SB118 in at least six months. The UFOP is our banner, and SB118 is our spiritual home so to speak, but we have many different ships with many differing interests represented. We have "special" consideration for people's simming preferences, some like to do intel/intrigue, some are more diplomacy and exploration, and some are more adventures and quests. These are preferences that are asked at the very beginning. It has become obvious to even the highest echelons of the organization that the interest in the Marines has grown enough to warrant its own duty section, if not guild. Heck, I'm open to bringing people in straight out of the Academy, but I think the learning curve would be steep, and as pointed out before they really should get their feet wet in regular simming first. The Marines are only as special as serving aboard SB118 is special from the rest of the fleet, or the Ithassa Region ship posting is special. It represents yet another aspect of simming that we can offer to the public and if done correctly, bring in new players. If we have Marine ships, there will be plenty of Starfleet jobs to fill for non Marines on those ships. We may have some players who want to play exclusively Marines. And the idea that the Marines will get to have all the fun leaving the regs with nothing to do is absolutely not true. That's like saying that the sailors who man the Marine Expeditionary Ships don't have their own issues and challenges or responsibilities during deployments. What we are talking about is opening up more well developed character classes. There are requirements to hold certain positions in the UFOP. Is it unfair that players are tested before promotion to Commander or Captain? No, its part of the process. This is at best a mere shadow of that sort of process. It's clear that people want Marine simming to be added to the previously mentioned list of preferences. As it is, Marines are subject to approval by a vessels C/O to even run as NPC's. Why not standardize the process so that Captains can feel confident that the player in question can handle the duties of running Marines, which as before was noted is not as simple as running a single character, but is almost always running an entire group of NPC characters. If we were to have a standardized training and indoctrination phase, those who complete it would have the backing of the group. Additionally, what is wrong with creating camaraderie and pride in the Marines as special. They are not "more important" than other character classes, but they do fill a special niche and without standards as to what constitutes proper Marine etiquette, tactics, and good lord lets not forget command and control issues, you end up with inconsistencies that can seriously derail fleet cohesion. As of right now there is no apparatus in place, this is all still brainstorming. But if the commandant of the Marine contingent of SB118 thinks we need training for Marines, maybe she has a good reason for feeling that way. I for one agree with her. At this point anyone playing a marine would be grandfathered in anyway. It could be encouraged that they attend a "boot camp" and the fact is they would probably enjoy simming in a total Marine environment for a bit anyway. But this is really aimed more at the emerging "consumer market" which seems to want Marines in Starfleet. Far from encouraging "die off", the prospect of doing well in a position such as Security or Tactical sufficient for promotion to E-2 and admission to Marine OCS gives newer recruits something to work towards and will foster a greater sense of involvement and accomplishment. I cannot help but think that that will enhance our standing as an organization.

[Sakorra Jefferson Reed]

Well said, Llewelyn. I totally agree.

Pedro, What I said in my last post actually negated any type of "special" definition applied to the Marines. I targeted all duty posts for extra training. Though I agree with Llewelyn that, being a rather new duty post, Marines need some extra attention. There are other duty posts cropping up that could benefit from that as well, such as diplomatic attaches and historical and archaeological duty posts, as well as Intel. Wouldn't a type of "conference" where all Intel officers or all diplomatc attaches could get together be warranted? This could be done either before or after posting to a ship. After all, it would help those officers to feel less isolated in their chosen post. They would feel as they are part of a group aside from the group on their ship. If you think about it, just about any job, even in Starfleet, requires continued and extra training. Doctors and nurses have to recertify. Firemen have continuous classes and tests. I'm not saying we go that far, but looking at a Wiki is not interactive. And posting on forums, while all well and good, does not necessarily get everyone together.

And Sharee, I totally get what you are saying. My training experience was much different than yours. I really liked it, and truth be told, I would have loved some extra training in tactical. I was quite scared to post, because I was afraid I would be posting something wrong. Not that extra, dedicated duty post training would alleviate this entirely, but it would certainly help an officer feel more grounded, and the training would help with ideas and scenarios that they may otherwise not have or be confused on. And I understand that many new cadets just want to be named an ensign and get assigned to their ships and their duty post and get started. It is all exciting, but for one, if they are not willing to undergo an extra day or two of training when most of the training doesn't take as long as they are originally told anyway, I'm not sure how serious they really are about simming with the group anyway, and two, even if extra training is not something that anyone would want to seriously think about adding to training, isn't it something that could be considered for after they are posted on their ships and had a chance to settle in a bit and aren't so overwhelmed? They will probably be wanting something like that by then. I sure did. I had a friend who joined UFOP, but she is not with us today, and the reason is because she felt kind of isolated in her duty post and she didn't know what to do. She hated searching for hours to find information. Certainly the Wiki is wonderful, but it still has a lot of development to go through for a lot of the duty posts, and it doesn't teach a person how to apply the information. Not everyone learns the same. For some, all they need to do is read the information and they are good to go. Some people need more practical applications.

Ok, but since this is about Marines, I will get back to that. I completely agree with Llewelyn's point about testing and needing to hold a certain rank before being considered for a posting with the Marines. We expect officers to go through commanders and captains tests...and lieutenants generally are required to lead two away missions before being promoted to Lt. Commander. I can pick up a book and read all I want about the Marines, but it isn't going to make me a Marine. The same holds true, in my opinion, for all duty posts. Just like picking up a book or reading something on the Wiki isn't going to prepare a cadet to be an ensign.

I don't want to step on toes, but that is just my opinion based on my experience and that of my friend's.

Edited by Jefferson Reed, 19 January 2009 - 12:52 PM.