59 replies to this topic

[Solok]

I don't know -- that's certainly the opposite of this Vulcan CMO, who entered Starfleet after a long (50 yrs.?) medical career was already behind him.

Also, I've another organization question: How closely are the Medical and Counseling departments aligned? (I asked this question in the Counseling forum, too.) When the Counselor and the CMO disagree as to patient treatment, does the CMO have more say? Is the CO qualified to adjudicate? Or is the Counselor something like a specialized MO, falling under the purview of the medical department -- the head of which is the CMO?

Edited by Solok, 05 January 2004 - 07:28 PM.

[FltAdml. Wolf]

Curiously, it always seemed to me that Troi and Crusher had very little to do with each other. I don't ever remember them consulting one another on any given person.

Honestly, I think that the CMO should have jurisdiction over the Counselor. It would seem to me that a "professional" organization would be to have the CMO be the head of health for the entire ship -- mental and physical. The counselor would then be an officer under that "Medical Officer" umbrella. Just IMHO.

[e-critter]

I was thinking the same thing.

[Solok]

So how do we convince the Counselors on our ships to obey us?

[e-critter]

Mind control .... or we could hire someone to take pictures of them in compromising positions and blackmail them. :lol:

[Solok]

Short of blackmail and mind control, do you think that a reasonable first step might be inviting the Counselor in on the next Medical staff meeting? Since I've got a new MO, I was going to have one, anyway. At least this begins a kind of liaison between the Counselor and the CMO.

[e-critter]

Well you are in charge of this medical thing.

[Gwen Hilzarie]

Curiously, it always seemed to me that Troi and Crusher had very little to do with each other. I don't ever remember them consulting one another on any given person.

Honestly, I think that the CMO should have jurisdiction over the Counselor. It would seem to me that a "professional" organization would be to have the CMO be the head of health for the entire ship -- mental and physical. The counselor would then be an officer under that "Medical Officer" umbrella. Just IMHO.

Hey I had to come over here and insert MHO in to the mix. I play a councellor on the Conny for those who don't know me.

As far as I'm consered councelling is a completely seprate department. We often interact and after Sickbay is done with a patient its my turn but I do not belive that the CMO should be in direct command of the Councellor.

And I will tell you one simple reason why.

Lt. JGs should not be ordering around a Lt. Commander! :blink:

That is the case on the Conny, our CMO is a Lt. jg and I have just become Lt Co. plain and simple it isn't right.

Now if it is determined that Medical and Councelling is one department then the position of CMO should fall to the highest ranking PC weather or not that is the Doctor or the Councellor.

In my case it would be an easy switch sense my PC has a medical degree and started in medical.

JMHO

[FltAdml. Wolf]

You're speaking of a very specific situation, in which the rules of the Trek universe are being bent anyway, Gwen

Of course, if we were to "officially" say that Counseling was part of Medical, then we'd have to make provisions for which officer was the highest rank. Keep in mind that a LtJG wouldn't be CMO in the Trek universe anyway -- so things are already getting skewed a little anyway.

[Gabriel]

Hi

That Lt jg you are talking about only happens to have over 30 years in the medical profession and has just joined Starfleet medical, besides,
he keeps getting demoted, anyway in RL in that situation a civilian going into a military position would be given a rank to fit his experiance,
that is not the case here so we have to make do.

My character is not interested in giving orders only looking after the well being of his crew and patients.

I think the medical and counselling departments should work together,
they should atleast be on good terms with each other.



Ah Dr Gabriel is a skilled Bio-molecular Physiologist, please remember me if you need any help
with a delicate surgery, i'd love to JP a good op with someone.

I did not see this on the training list in Starfleet medical, am I the only one?

[FltAdml. Wolf]

anyway in RL in that situation a civilian going into a military position would be given a rank to fit his experiance,
that is not the case here so we have to make do.

What did you mean by this?

From what I can tell, all of the doctors in the series' were StarFleet, and thus military, officers to begin with. Bones was a Lieutenant Commander when he became CMO under Kirk, Crusher was a Commander, Bashir was a Lieutenant, and the Doctor, of course, was a special situation.

[Solok]

Lt. JGs should not be ordering around a Lt. Commander!  :blink:

That is the case on the Conny, our CMO is a Lt. jg and I have just become Lt Co.  plain and simple it isn't right. 

Now if it is determined that Medical and Councelling is one department then the position of CMO should fall to the highest ranking PC weather or not that is the Doctor or the Councellor.

I've been on ships, though, Gwen, where the FO was outranked by some department heads -- say, an FO Lcmd, with a COS Cmd. This would be permissible within Trek rules, and the COS would still have to follow the FO's orders.

So, I think we need a better argument than the one about rank. Push the differences between Counseling and Medical, that they deserve to be different departments. That, at least, is the direction in which I would go (if I weren't a CMO, and didn't want total and complete power over as many people as possible!).

[e-critter]

As Solok has stated, juniors in charge of senior officers happens in ST and even today. As for who should be CMO in cases like the one described, it would be the senior member of the department.

I realize that means that sometimes a Counselor would command a doctor, just like a Surgeon may be in command of emergency personnel or pediatric personnel today, or the other way around.

[FltAdml. Wolf]

As Solok has stated, juniors in charge of senior officers happens in ST and even today.  As for who should be CMO in cases like the one described, it would be the senior member of the department.

I realize that means that sometimes a Counselor would command a doctor, just like a Surgeon may be in command of emergency personnel or pediatric personnel today, or the other way around.

I think we need to make two important distinctions here:

1. It's about Chain of Command: If it is decided (by the folks here, and then by the CC) that the CMO is in charge of Medical AND Counseling officers, then their position takes precidence over rank. At least, this is how I understand Navy operations. (If someone knows differently, please, by all means, bring that to our attention )

This seems to be reinforced by, for example, the self-destruct sequence for a vessel on Trek. It was, as far as I could tell, the duty of certain officers due to their position and not their rank, that they could authorize a self destruct. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that in an emergency, when the highest ranking officer dies, the next highest ranking officer moves into the position of leader. So hmm.

:-\

2. Remember IC/OOC: What's more important, I believe, is the difference between IC and OOC. Everyone has an OOC rank -- the highest rank they've achieved in their career in UFOP. What rank your character is doesn't matter, as long as it's not higher than your OOC rank.

So, it's important to recognize that even if you, as a Counselor, are higher in rank than the CMO, you would still OOC, hold the authority. IC, however, I think it would be in everyone's best interest to follow the chain of command as it is (or would be) set up.

Has anyone been in the Navy? If so, do we have an "authority" on how the chain of command works? -- Rank or Position?

[e-critter]

Yes Admiral, I was in the Navy for 10 years and you are correct on how rank and authority works.

On Victory, I am one of only two Commanders but because I play Megan more like McCoy and the doctors of today she must answer to a Lieutenant Commander FO and is even with other junior Department Heads.

In the modern Navy, if the Counselors were in with Medical, they would be under the Chief Medical Officer. Now this individual could be either a Medical Officer or Counselor, but once assigned every medical officer/counselor would answer to that position no matter the rank.

[Admiral Hollis]

My one question of this, would by how does placing the Counselor under the CMO affect the Counselors ability to advise the Captain. I am thinking Trio with Picard.

Think about your real life job. How would the head of a department feel if one of the subordinates were always having hush hush meetings with the CEO. Would they become suspicious or nervious about their own positing. Maybe not if the CMO is a Vulcan, but if they are Klingon or Terran, I could imagine the CMO not liking it.

Hollis

[Gwen Hilzarie]

Sense I do hold an MD IC then by the way you are discribing it I would be CMO becasue I hold the highest rank.

Plus even though you have named examples of Commanders as department heads and a Lt. Commander as FO we are still talking a rank difrence of 1 not 3. If the "CMO" on my ship was even a full Lt. then I wouldn't have such an issue with the rank because I agree that in medical rank means little. JMHO.

Now still I belive that councelling and medical should be seprate they have vastly diffrent jobs and duties, their own staffs and other than the fact that frequently after an injury a crew member will come to a councellor afterward very little interaction.

[Solok]

I think Gwen is right, that Medical and Counseling ought to be considered two different departments with two different department heads, although there is no indication (that I know of) in canon that any ship comes equipped with any more than one Counselor. A department of one is a bit of a stretch, it seems to me, but that seems better than forcing the CMO and Counselor to knock heads all of the time.

That said, in the rare case when the Counselor and CMO disagree as to the treatment of a particular patient, I think the CMO's opinion overrides the Counselor's, regardless of rank. Thus, even in Gwen's case, the LtJG CMO ought to have the final say about patient care on the vessel. This would extend, I think, even to removing the CO from duty -- if the Counselor thinks the CO cannot perform his tasks as CO, but the CMO does not agree, the final judgment falls to the CMO.

As far as rank and position go, I think we've all been in the position at least once of having to obey orders from lower-ranking (even much lower ranking) officers. That seems, to me, just to be a part of Starfleet (and particularly of UFOP) life. I don't see why the CMO ought to be the highest ranking Medical Officer on the ship; he or she ought to be the most qualified for the job. The position of CMO gives the character the authority necessary, without considerations of rank.

[Gwen Hilzarie]

That said, in the rare case when the Counselor and CMO disagree as to the treatment of a particular patient, I think the CMO's opinion overrides the Counselor's, regardless of rank.  Thus, even in Gwen's case, the LtJG CMO ought to have the final say about patient care on the vessel.  This would extend, I think, even to removing the CO from duty -- if the Counselor thinks the CO cannot perform his tasks as CO, but the CMO does not agree, the final judgment falls to the CMO.

I disagree with this strongly. The CMO is in charge of the person's body the Counsellor is in charge of a person's mind. A crew member can be completely healthy physicly but lossing his/her mind. You wouldn't expect a non-medical officer to make judgements on a person's health by the same token a non-councellor should not be able to override a councellor's mental assessment.

[Solok]

I don't think the mind/body split corresponds exactly to that between the CMO and the Counselor. Rather, I have always thought that psychiatry and related fields (neurology, for example) fall under the purview of medicine, not counseling. The Counselor, from what I know of Troi (in Trek) and counseling generally (in RL), engages his/her patients in psychotherapy. But that wouldn't include diagnoses of medical conditions (like depression, or schizophrenia) that would require medical treatment. The Counselor is more like a psychologist, who in today's world holds a PhD but not an MD. The Counselor's opinion ought to be central to the CMO's diagnoses regarding mental disorders, but those diagnoses will be the physician's to make (at least when neurological and chemical disorders are the causes for the disorders in question).

As for relieving the CO of command, canon seems to indicate that this responsibility falls to the CMO alone among the crew.