69 replies to this topic

[FltAdml. Wolf]

From the "IC or OOC?" thread, it looks like the majority of readers are "For" having an IC "Psi-Corp."

Here's what the Agenda should be from this point, as I see it:

1. Discuss and vote on these "Laws and Codes" and decide if they will be the "official" laws for the IC Readers group. (Head to the appropriate thread in this forum for more discussion on this matter.)

2. Decide if this is a purely StarFleet institution, or if this is more of group of Readers from all walks of Federation life. (Thus, not sanctioned specifically by SF.)

3. Decide on a better name for the "Psi-Corp" In Character.

4. Create a Secondary/NPC character base for this "Psi-Corp" (i.e.- Director, Asst. Director, etc.) and decide the location of where the HQ for this group would be.

5. Get approval from the CC.

6. Update the Readers Guild and UFOP webpages to reflect the changes.

[FltAdml. Wolf]

At the prodding of Gabriel in the "IC or OOC?" thread, I'd like to revive the idea for an IC Psi-Corp.

Now, I realize that the discussion has led us to something more along the lines of a "University of Betazed for Readers." However, I would like to make a suggestion on this topic. I think it would be difficult to work this type of university into a reader's background. If you consider that many readers, from what we've seen on screen, are taught on their own home-worlds about telepathy, plus everyone in SF attends an Academy location, I'm not entirely sure that you could also force another institue of learning into any reader's resume. Furthermore, Betazed may be weeks or months travel from some planets. I can't imagine that the U of B would have too many "satellite" campuses like the Academy does.

Considering this, I'd also like to say that I think for this idea to be compelling at all, it needs some kind of intrigue and mystery involved with it. Reading, in any form, is something that the vast majority of Federation citizens and StarFleet personnel do not have access to. Although many would likely know a reader, just through the proliferation of the Betazoid species and other minor readers, I think it's safe to say that telepathy and empathy are skills which some people are not entirely acquainted with.

So, I believe that the best way to create an IC reader institution is to go with something of a hybrid between the Psi-corp idea and the University idea. The "Psi-Corp" (renamed with something better, of course), would be an organization made up of very strong Readers. I don't believe that too many Betazoids would be involved, as they have their own "institution s" around telepathy -- but that doesn't mean they're excluded, by any means. This Psi-corp would be a clearinghouse for anything having to do with reading within the Federation, and would seek to have some contact and/or knowledge of all readers. It could also have a University of sorts, which trained some of the most powerful readers. So, if your character is written as an extremely strong telepath, he or she might be "recruited" to go to this University, which is funded by the Psi-corp. The Psi-corp could also have a code of conduct for readers, which is only enforced by their own internal censure system.

This accomplishes the creation of a University, where some interesting SIMming can happen, but it also accomplishes an organization which may, or may not, be entirely in the realm of "ethical." Although there may not be overt tones of inappropriate behavior, who's to say that from time-to-time the Corp doesn't "forcefully recruit" telepaths into their organization? (Anyone seen Firefly?)

Anyway, just a thought

Either way, the core group of people here who are interested in this idea need to take the initiative and make some decisions. Get things organized, then approach the CC, and once the idea is approved, start bringing in the readers of UFOP.

[Rourke]

Ok i'm going to raise two things.

Babylon 5 Psi corps we know how that one went.

However looking at human nature if there was a grouping of very strong telepaths it's almost guaranteed they'd be used for policing, intelligence etc etc matters. I for one wouldn't think Section 31 would sit on the sidelines on that issue.

So in what true context would they be used? A friendly group of telepaths exploring their skills over coffee. Or a tool to be used by Starfleet and it's various factions?

[FltAdml. Wolf]

However looking at human nature if there was a grouping of very strong telepaths it's almost guaranteed they'd be used for policing, intelligence etc etc matters. I for one wouldn't think Section 31 would sit on the sidelines on that issue.

Who's to say Section 31 isn't involved?

[Rourke]

I didn't meant that, what I meant was if you created one you'd have to realise that it wouldn't all be nicey nice...

Was there ever a trek definitive answer, barring species specific ability, about the blocking of telepaths?

[FltAdml. Wolf]

I didn't meant that, what I meant was if you created one you'd have to realise that it wouldn't all be nicey nice...

Well of course... that's the whole point! Are they good? Are they bad? It's all part of the plot threads.

Was there ever a trek definitive answer, barring species specific ability, about the blocking of telepaths?

Not sure what you mean?

[Rourke]

Ok i'm understanding the concept better now.

What I meant was... take Babylon 5 for instance, we know people can block lower level telepaths with a lot of effort.

We know from trek that Ferengi aren't readable by telepaths. (hence species specific comment).

However do we know if it's possible for say a human to block telepaths? Or is it just accepted that for a telepath the mind is an open book in the trek world?

[Kaedyn Zehn]

It was shown on an episode of DS9, I think the Maquis that Cardassian officers are trained to prevent telepaths reading their minds. A Vulcan couldn't establish a mind-meld with Gul Dukat. Nothing has been said abou humans being able to do the same.

[terpes]

As telepathy has to do with the mind a person that can control his mind to a certain level, could block a telepath. Of course the stronger the telepath the stronger the mind needs to work to block that. As another point one can't be with his defenses up all the time, all the days, all the hours. On a usual basis the mind is open except for those with high training on that and a telepath could read on anyone if caught by surprise. However if expected it'll take more effort to penetrate that mind. So any mind could be trained to resist telephatic attacks to a certain level. This will allow anyone to enter this corp after the approapiate exams and trainings. I tend to believe that this "Psi-corp" will be used by starfleet, maybe some of the founders or teachers of this will work for section 31 and other will be openly used by starfleet when a conflict with a telepath happens or a JAG investigation is needed.

I've come with some names for the group, IC of course:

University of reading improvement
Foundation for mind research
School for mind developement

Anyone have another idea?

Edited by terpes, 10 November 2005 - 07:47 AM.

[Mithrandir2k]

Well, part of the problem is Trek doesn't give us much by way of classification of what a telepath is capable of. To clarify what I mean:

We know that telepaths can extract thoughts from the minds of others - but in what form? We have examples of Lwaxana Troi reading minds that would not be 'thinking' in the Betazoid language - so unless we assume she speaks theirs, do we assume that within the mind all language is the same, or that knowledge extracted telepathically is inferred from internalised imagery and then interpreted by the telepath? I tend to assume that the latter is true - making telepathy more flawed with species whose internalised voice speaks a language that the Reader does not - but are we to assume this is the case? I'm not arrogant enough to think my interpretation of this problem is the only interpretation

ST:VI gives us a good, solid example of a telepath exacting some form of control over the physical being of another, in the form of the mind-meld between Spock and Valeris. During that meld, Valeris speaks the words Spock is dragging from her mind. We know this is not necessary, as there are other instances of melding where knowledge is passed silently. So, is this ability specific to Vulcans? Was it specific to that scenario (one telepath trying to obtain knowledge from an unwilling telepath's mind)? Is it limited to forcing the victim to physically decline the internalised dialogue?

There are, of course, several examples within Trek where telepathic species manipulate non-telepaths - so, are we to assume that all telepathic races are capable of this, and some just forbid it on grounds of ethics? I've never simmed a telepathic character "taking control" of another's mind - the closest I've come is a character mimicing the internal dialogue of the target, convincing him for a short period (enough to distract him) that her projected thoughts are actually his own thoughts. But is that overstepping the boundaries of what is feasible with Trek telepathy? It's obviously a lesser invasion than we've seen demonstrated in the series, but it's still not a canon-demo'd use of telepathy.

Just a thought, but before we start considering the 'Psi-Corps' idea, might we be better served discussing the actual powers granted to Readers within Trek? Are telepaths in Trek limited to walking into a room full of murder suspects and saying "He did it!"? Or can they walk up to an hostile non-telepath and implant the image of a terrifying monster directly into his mind, scaring him off? Does hissing the word "Painnnnn" at a guard (forgive the B5 ref) cause him to collapse?

Sorry, reading back over this it sounds like a rant, which it honestly isn't It's just a thought - albeit a longwinded one

Later days!

-Will

Edited by Mithrandir2k, 25 December 2005 - 06:44 PM.

[FltAdml. Wolf]

I think your question is best answered by saying "It depends."

I don't believe there's an arbitrary limit on what telepaths can do, as we've seen in ST:NEM, it's just a question of how powerful the telepath is, and how "weak" the victim is.

In the case of a very strong victim, (i.e.- Troy), you have to have an extremely strong telepath (i.e.- Reman manservant guy) to overcome. But also take into consideration that (IMHO), a telepath trumps an empath every time -- so Reman guy might have been fairly weak, while the strong empath Troy couldn't overcome.

Anyway, again, I believe it all just depends on the strength of those involved, but in any case there isn't an arbitrary limit to the power.

[tekra]

So any mind could be trained to resist telephatic attacks to a certain level.

We could then make the assumption that all recent StarFleet grads have had that training -- particularily those who have been through command training. It may not be strong in everyone -- just like some are better in marksmanship than others -- but everyone should have some basic training and instruction in resisting telepaths.

Or perhaps they'd all have some sort of metal helmet, designed to resist telepathy. Although, I don't recall -- does that require magnet-controlling powers to work?

Edited by tekra, 25 December 2005 - 07:59 PM.

[Estantia]

But also take into consideration that (IMHO), a telepath trumps an empath every time

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree a bit there, telepathy and empathy are differetn skills, telepathy is almost completely based on thoughts (which may or may not include feelings ) but empathy can also have a more physical grounding, body language etc. so in some way empath trumps telepath, because if the mind's blocked a telepath gets almost nothing whereas an empath (or most with a grounding in psycology) would be able to see nervousness and be able to summise more as they generally know the fellings that causse those actions more.

However I think it would be safe to assume that empaths are harder to block as there is less control over emotions than thoughts so it balances out, telepaths are easier to gain and easier to block but empaths are more difficult to obtain and harder to block.

[Captain Robin Phoenix]

As I recall, rules for readers within UFOP already exist.
During the development of the University of Betazed, which would be IC aswell but sadly failed because of few people having time for the project, the 'Readers Code ,which already existed, was slightly adjusted and expanded.

Perhaps we could use all the old work on the 'failed' project of the University of Betazed and combine it with this new Psi-Corp idea. A place to study telepaths, (train section 31 staff in resisting telepaths?), train telepaths to do Starfleet's good/dirty work etc. There already is a solid basis from which this IC group can expand as they go.

Another 2 cents,

[Estantia]

It seems like a good idea to me, and I can't exactly see why there shouldn't be one...

[Mithrandir2k]

As I recall, rules for readers within UFOP already exist.
During the development of the University of Betazed, which would be IC aswell but sadly failed because of few people having time for the project, the 'Readers Code ,which already existed, was slightly adjusted and expanded.

My point was more related to the actual limitations of telepathic ability, rather than those consciously applied to the Talent by the Reader Still, if the consensus is simply "Make telepathic abilities reasonable in context, and don't Deus Ex", then I'm thoroughly content

Regarding a Psi-Corps idea, I think it would be a marvellous move. I'm not sure it would need to have a dedicated 'simming' base, tho' - it might be more useful in the context of being added to the Wiki as "something players/GMs can use", with clearly defined rules as to how it is applicable within UFOP's canon. I suspect the more active members of the Readers Guild would be the best people to devise the actual material itself - Commander Devar et al - and since there's a clearly defined procedure for addition of material to UFOP Canon courtesy of the Constitution, it would probably be more cut and dried that way.

Later days,

-Will

PS: If this does come to fruition, it will certainly be of use to me - little Jelandra has been convinced of some sort of telepath-related conspiracy within the Federation ever since Starfleet allowed the Dominion to occupy Betazed

[Captain Robin Phoenix]

Interesting thoughts Will.

The Wiki could indeed function as a good solid base of information. However, since it was the intention for the Psy-Corp to be IC (In Character) some form of simming group could prove useful.
Here is a ambitious thought:

Create the Univerity based on the same principles as the Duronis II colony. A building on a planet (Betazed?) where all facets of telepathy and empathy are being explored and implemented. Crewmembers of other ships/stations could go there for a few weeks IC to study and learn more about reading by ways of sims based on the Training principles already in use by the Academy but then focussed on reading.

The 'fixed' staff in the mean time can expand the reader part of the Wiki, brainstorm on telepathy and empathy and sim 'missions' to test and implement new theories/methods of simming readers. As the Duronis embassy there could be a vessel assigned to it for numerous purposes, from training to (sectret) Psy-Corp missions and diplomatic trips to reader worlds to expand knowledge and the influence of the University throughout the known Galaxy.

As I wrote, perhaps a little ambitious but I like the idea.

[Estantia]

I love the idea, and if my character wasn't so junior (that's an understatement) then I'd love to help build it, unfortunately she doesn't have as much control as someone her age should... but I'd love to help build it.

[Mithrandir2k]

Create the Univerity based on the same principles as the Duronis II colony. A building on a planet (Betazed?) where all facets of telepathy and empathy are being explored and implemented. Crewmembers of other ships/stations could go there for a few weeks IC to study and learn more about reading by ways of sims based on the Training principles already in use by the Academy but then focussed on reading.

Sounds interesting, certainly - and it would serve as yet another method for inter-ship IC interactions. Would it be a 'mindbenders-only club', or would it also cover methods used by norms to limit the effectiveness of telepathic scans?

Furthermore, would the institution invite flatscan (T -1/E -1) characters to participate to further its own research?

The 'fixed' staff in the mean time can expand the reader part of the Wiki, brainstorm on telepathy and empathy and sim 'missions' to test and implement new theories/methods of simming readers. As the Duronis embassy there could be a vessel assigned to it for numerous purposes, from training to (sectret) Psy-Corp missions and diplomatic trips to reader worlds to expand knowledge and the influence of the University throughout the known Galaxy.

Obviously the trick with this, as with any research-based sim group, is that any discoveries etc. would need to go through the councils for ratification - expansion of canon and all that - probably before the plot in which they are 'discovered' begins. Normally this is less critical (GM invention of a new alien-of-the-week, etc, generally only affects the crew playing that particular mission, and my understanding is that such things don't need voting upon), but in a situation where over half the active ships in the Fleet might be expected to have one or more crewmen present, thereby potentially affecting the canon world-view of a reasonable proportion of the Fleet through second and third-hand knowledge, it might need somewhat more rigorous enforcement.

Also, it would need to have a relatively real-time update with the Wiki, if the events within the simming group changed anything important about the University/Corps/understanding of telepathy, with notable updates also being forwarded to the Readers Guild Y!Group. Means the perma-staff would probably have quite a bit on their plate.

As you say, it's an ambitious idea, but I think it may be one that's worth pursuing if there are people willing to dedicate the sort of time it would require, and the councils understand the effect it might have on their own workload. It would certainly set a useful precedent as regards expanding UFOP canon. Ironically, I originally intended something similar for (the embarrassing failure that was) the Galileo - but in terms of Trek-tech and Trek-sci, rather than Reading. With a more competent GM than I was heading this up, and the added bonuses of a rotating player compliment, I'd expect this to fare much better

Later days,

-Will

[Estantia]

we'd need to have a few people for that so the workload's not too high.

Is there a repairs station on Betazed already? If there is that would be a good reason for ships to go there, they can exchange news and insights while their ship is repaired, which means different ships could also meet, allowing for some interesting discussions.

But non-telepaths would be able to learn there too, if we assume that officers can be taught how to 'block' telepathy then it would be a good place to instruct them in it and see which races are better at mental defense, anti-readers in a sense.